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 Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes

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audie
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PostSubject: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Tue May 26, 2009 7:39 pm

There has been some scuttlebutt floating around that some committees are considering the elimination of halter classes at their shows. Halter classes are poorly supported, shows schedule for them but end up with "dead time" and the expense of ribbons that are not used. Since I am not actively showing at this time, this is still just rumor as far as I am concerned, but what do you folks that are showing hear and think about the possibility.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Tue May 26, 2009 7:44 pm

AND what would you suggest to the show committees to encourage more entries in those classes. Many had hoped that the scorecard would rescue halter, especially since SHIH classes are doing so well. What do you think about the AEPA (English Performance Halter) classes? Are we headed the way of the Quarter Horses - you walk through the showbarns and see 4 distinct types of horses - halter, western working, western pleasure and english horses - where one type does not resemble the other, and breeders don't particularly intermingle them?
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri May 29, 2009 2:20 am

I for one would sure hate to see halter classes eliminated. It's the only area of showing that I am personally interested in. If they were hoping the scorecard would save their shows, then they need to give it a year or so, so that exhibitors can see, and word can get out, if it's really making a difference. People who've been involved for many years have become jaded by the politics and hype of the showring. I had considered myself finished with it, until I came across the Army. Now I'm considering getting back into it again. I don't even know what the status presently is with regard to halter horses showing at Nationals - at one point, they had to have some performance points in order to show halter, then that rule was dropped, then it was resurrected again. As you say, at the AQHA shows, halter horses are distinctly different from performance horses. And the AQHA is the largest and most successful breed going today. There are a couple of things that we could copy from AQHA that would be good for our breed, but I don't see it ever happening.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri May 29, 2009 3:18 am

The problem with the card is the USE of the card. When someone shows a horse at one show (Vegas) and gets 18 and above in the categories, it is tough to justify the 10s and 11s that the same horse gets with the AHA card. There is no rhyme or reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri May 29, 2009 11:55 am

Like has been talked about on other boards, the scorecard needs to have the judges educated in using it. I agree with Del on the inconsistency between shows and even between judges. I think it's going to take some time before we see that improve. Politics are still a big part of that venue and sadly may never be totally eliminated.

I think, too, that all of us need to continue to support the use of the card and keep showing. It's the only way to make a new change become standard. Takes time.

Mary S.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri May 29, 2009 10:17 pm

If judges of other divisions can figure out how to use a SCORING SYSTEM, then wouldn't you figure the ARABIAN judges can figure out how to use one for halter?

If they cannot, then they are admitting they are too 'special' to figure it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sat May 30, 2009 3:52 pm

Halter was elinimated several years ago from our local class A show, Fiesta del Mar in San Diego. We brought it back last year but entries were very low and none of the halter people showed up. Consequently, halter is dead again except for region one. If you want to show in hand at Fiesta, you have to show in SHIH.

The card has reduced stress by eliminating the final standup but we still have the hard stance achieved through abusive means. AHA judges are expecting to see the hard stance. I don't think many of them can judge a horse without it. I doubt most of them could go into a pasture with mare and foals and evaluate them. We still have a ways to go to make halter better.

Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sat May 30, 2009 10:17 pm

Halter is supposed to be used to judge the horse's confirmation and movement. It's a breeding class and IMO should continue, it just needs to continue correctly and I for one would like to see more people showing for the reason it was originally created, to judge the horse against the standard of the breed.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:21 am

As long as amateurs keep supporting halter classes, then the shows will support them. For the big trainers, it is difficult for them to get their clients to pay for them to go to small shows. They want to be where media coverage is good, marketability is high, and prize money is available. So that means Scottsdale, Vegas, Regionals, and Nationals, etc... If local shows want to increase halter participation, they need to increase show exposure. At Saguaro classic in Scottsdale this year (Dec), we are holding the classes in the Wendel arena, so that everyone can practice in that venue. Now you would think that halter classes in this area would be huge at local shows, but that is not always the case. We still have to work hard to keep them supported. Given that so few people are breeding, that doesn't help the situation much either.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:42 pm

The media coverage angle is interesting. Are you talking about standard news media or Arabian industry media?

Just a thought about the Arab Industry media - at one time all show results were printed in AHW. That is no longer the case. For the most part only the bigger shows get into print and not always on a class by class basis.

Then there was Gladys Brown Edwards (now I am seriously dating myself). She was a wonderful, thought-provoking writer. She did articles for AHW (I think - guess it could have been the Times). She was a no holds barred observer who commented in print, regarding structure, movement and breeding of the horses that were winning and the horses that she felt had been overlooked and why.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:50 pm

Sorry - had to leave the computer for a minute.

Back to the standard news media....in the effort to attract new people to the breed are we depending too much on glitz and glamour? How many new people are brought into the industry just to "rub shoulders" as opposed to having a real emotional connection with the breed? Is this something that should concern us regarding future standard business practices? Is this what has directed halter trends?

My mind rambles.......
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:19 am

I think halter is very political & I'm leaning more toward sport horse though the colt is halter type so I may try it via the army. I do know of a certain halter handler who has just gotten his judge's card & we have had "issues" in the past so I think he'd not pin my colt at all or pin him very low because of our past problems. That's why I think ALL judges should be educated in all classes so you can pull a performance judge for a halter class so you have an honest opinion of the horses & not the better horse losing or winning because of how a particular judge feels about a handler.
Just my two cents
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:25 pm

After showing halter horses for 20 years as both a professional and an amateur, I can honestly say that there is alot less politics now than ever before. I believe that the industry is realizing that they have got to be as fair as possible to revive the industry. That being said, so often I see quality horses being shown by amateurs that are poorly conditioned, and poorly presented. Even if the judge wanted to use the horse because it is of good conformation, they can't reward a poorly turned out horse. Bear in mind that the professionals that consistantly win are there because they know what the individual judge is looking for, and they bust their butts to make their horses look as good as possible. Their living depends on success in the ring. If you know that a judge has a bias against you, why whould you spend your money for their opinion. Don't support biased judges, and the show committees won't hire them. Remember, the people who benifit from certain judges are the ones who do the work on the show committees.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:50 pm

Audie, I agree that the glitz may initially attract people to Arabian horses, but it is their loving natures that keep them here. Promotion of the breed comes from all of us riding, showing, and loving our horses. There will always be those who are only in it for the business aspect, but for some of us, that is the only way we get to participate. The Arabian horse had afforded me the chance to meet famous people, Sheiks, and the very wealthy. It has afforded me the opportunity to go places I would otherwise have no chance to go. We have the most beautifu; breed of horse on the world. Lets not be ashamed of that.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:18 pm

I too have had unique opportunities afforded by my contact with horses....no shame....just thoughtful discussion.
Has the desire for glitz and "living art" modified how we, or the general public view our horses? Are we headed for a halter horse, distinct from an english horse, distinct from a western horse? Should our halter horses be form to function? And what function should that be? A middle of the road, not extreme anything, all around useful horse....or an upright english horse, or...?
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:19 am

We are already there as far as breeding for specific types of Arabian horses. I know what bloodlines to go to for english, reining, western, halter, etc. The hope is that we breed sound, good minded horses. My greatest complaint with halter breeding is that temperment is so difficult to evaluate. I love the Marwans because they are sooooo trainable. I hope that with the scoring system, the need for the really hard stand-up will continue to wane, and the halter trainers won't have to look for the horses with lots of blow.
Rarely do the truely english horses bred horses win because they usually aren't typey enough. I worry more that we will get to a place where the only thing that counts is the head, but again, the scoring system should greatly aid in that not happening. At Vegas, you had to have extreme type to even show up, but it took the total packege to win.
The best indication I have on this issue is Scottsdale. Although the halter arena attracts alot of attention, 2/3 of the entries, and 3/4 of the classes offered are performance classes. The show makes the majority of it's class revenues from performance, so the breeder who breeds for halter only, shoots himself in the foot in the long run when his produce can't go on after halter.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:19 pm

I agree about Scottsdale. The problem is that there are the big trainers that only present their stallions and offspring at that show. It brings in a lot of revenue for the Scottsdale area and club. And they refused to use the Scorecard this year.

Mary S.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:40 pm

I have done kind of a straw poll with owners that I have run into over the last few days, asking if they ever showed in the halter classes and if not, why not.

Most do not...no surprise there. Reasons given mostly focused around (in roughly the order of frequency) 1) It is an extra unneccessary expense 2) Have no interest 3) Horse is not halter type 4) Not a breeder so it doesn't matter. When asked if they would show halter at a fun show for a couple of dollars, the results shifted a little. If they were going to be there anyway, most felt they would do the class for the fun of it. (A surprising comment that came up a couple of times refered to these little shows offering prize money if there were a certain number of entries.)

Those who did show in the halter classes did it because they said that they enjoyed it. Only a couple of those people showed under saddle at all. I am not sure if those two statements are really related or just coincidental.


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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:02 pm

Okay, back to being unsure about the statement that people who showed halter seemed to not show under saddle. It would be interesting to know if that was the case because 1) they prefer not to ride 2) they were drawn to the Arab as a halter horse only 3) their trainer is a halter trainer who doesn't produce under saddle horses.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:01 pm

It is very difficult for a trainer to do both halter and performance at the same time and do both well. When the halter classes are gaing on is when the performance trainers are getting their horses and clients ready. And most clients pigeon hole trainers into type casts, ie; hes just a halter trainer, she.s only competitive in hunter, etc. It becomes hard to get clients in divisions other than what it is you are known for. So, as trainers, we put all our efforts into the area we can most easily draw business. Good business parctices dictate, do one thing, and do it well. Also, owners who cannot, or prefer not to ride, can still enjoy the comraderie and fulfillment of horse ownership in the halter arena and breeding shed.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:40 pm

audie wrote:
Okay, back to being unsure about the statement that people who showed halter seemed to not show under saddle. It would be interesting to know if that was the case because 1) they prefer not to ride 2) they were drawn to the Arab as a halter horse only 3) their trainer is a halter trainer who doesn't produce under saddle horses.

When I was showing Halter, I was doing so because I enjoyed - and still do - a typey and physically correct horse. I just love to look at them (the Halter types) - I don't care if I ever ride one. I was more drawn to the concept of physical perfection, than rideability. It still drives me in my breeding decisions and preferences.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:09 pm

I went to Molalla once for two weeks of dressage training. It rained the whole time. But, boy when the sun came out it was beautiful. I too enjoy the halter types, especially as so many of the popular lines are also easy to train under saddle. My Ames Charisma gelding is beautiful under saddle, and my partners Sir Fames colt is soooo easy going. All the Marwan get that I've worked with were easy to train, tractable, and smart. It will be interesting to see how they do under saddle. And look at Valentino's. pedigree. That is some good riding stock as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:20 pm

aandmequestrian wrote:
I went to Molalla once for two weeks of dressage training. It rained the whole time. But, boy when the sun came out it was beautiful. I too enjoy the halter types, especially as so many of the popular lines are also easy to train under saddle. My Ames Charisma gelding is beautiful under saddle, and my partners Sir Fames colt is soooo easy going. All the Marwan get that I've worked with were easy to train, tractable, and smart. It will be interesting to see how they do under saddle. And look at Valentino's. pedigree. That is some good riding stock as well.

Yes, it certainly knows how to rain here Laughing , but as you say, it's gorgeous when the sun breaks through. Who were you riding under?

I love the look of the Marwans. Wish I'd bred to him the first year he came to the US.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:31 am

I don't remember. That was back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:17 pm

I personally would not like to see halter classes eliminated at all...I'm not sure that I have an answer as to how to encourage more entries...one thing I do know is that whether judges are judging the old way or with the new scorecard...right or wrong, it seems to me that it is still subjective to each individual judge.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:41 pm

You are so right about each judge being somewhat subjective. That is human nature. We try very hard to judge to a standard, but at the end of the day, we all have preferences. I know that a judge who breeds Egyptians is going to place a different type of horse than the one who breeds pure Polish. And then there are the Sport horse judges. Everyone in that group complains that there is no standard for judging there either. The dressage judge may pick something very different from what the hunter/ jumper judge picks. That is why it is soooo important to know your judges, and evaluate their placings based on what you know about their tastes. Don't beat your horse up based on one opinion. A show record is only one aspect of a horses value. I find it interesting that lots of reserve national champion stallions have been better breeding horses than the horse that won the class.
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PostSubject: to Halter or not to halter....   Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:51 pm

Ah yes, the age old question.
I haven't shown a horse under saddle at a major show since I was a teenager but I enjoy the halter classes very much. I would not mind showing under saddle, but I am not comfortable with it so I am kind of chicken.... maybe next year. ( c;

For the "type of judge" question and the politics- this is something that has always confused, frustrated and otherwise made me crazy. If I am watching a halter class, there's such a wide variety of horses that are pinned from one show to the next just based on what an individual judge prefers. English type (movement without the "pretty" so much) versus western type versus the classic look.
I happen to think that fat, round, western-type horses are not attractive. They look coarse and more like a QH than and arab. When I take a horse to a show I want it to look well fed, but not like a thanksgiving turkey. And conditioned, but not so much that it looks like a quarter horse. Such a fine line-

So, back to the point (sorry I ramble). How do you know what judge prefers what if a) you weren't there to see the condition of the horse that won last week or aren't familiar with the horse at all and b) have never heard of the judge

As a group, can we review the show schedule and evaluate the judges based on their preferences (no bashing) just so that we all know what that judge expects and prefers? Sure would take some of the stress out of it if you go to a gun fight with a pistol instead of a rubber band.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:35 pm

First and foremost, there will never be a concensus on the perfect horse. Secondly, now that we are judging against a standard, and not comparatively, it becomes a matter of how good is that judge really at evaluating your horse. I keep a log book, I ask my friends and associates what this judge likes, etc. But at the end of the day, winning and losing is subjective. I got a higher score from two out of three judges at Region 7, that the horse that ended up second, because the third judge scored me very low. I came home happy because I beat a Scottsdale reserve champion signature colt, and World cup top 5 in the eyes of two Level 1 judges. As for that third judge, his score was so out of line with every other judge that has judged my horse, that I know he is the one that is clueless. But at the end of the day, that is how it goes. My job is to present my horses in the best conditioned, best trained, and best turned out as possible. The rest is up to the alignment of the stars on any given day.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:29 pm

I was advised on the very same thing many times over the years by a trainer friend of mine!....to know your judges...keep a list of judges you show under, what they like and don't like about your horse...don't take it personal and don't pay the money to show under a judge who you know won't place your horse just because you want to show...don't waste your money, but on the reverse, when you find the pool of judges who DO like your horse, take advantage of it. Although I'm sure there are instances when you have to qualify and you may not have a choice who you show under...and if that occurs...all you can do is your best, win or lose, because when it's all said and done, you are the one who has to live with the knowledge that you accomplished everything you could because you prepared for it and worked hard OR you also have to live with the fact that maybe you shortcut something and it showed!

And also, when your horse (stallion) looks really good out there, you never know who might be in the stands watching...and it may not necessarily be the client who wants to breed to the winner of the class...they may discover in watching the class that your horse may have the qualities that person feels will best cross with their mare...so it always pays to bring in a well turned out horse....win or lose!

aandmequestrian wrote:
You are so right about each judge being somewhat subjective. That is human nature. We try very hard to judge to a standard, but at the end of the day, we all have preferences. I know that a judge who breeds Egyptians is going to place a different type of horse than the one who breeds pure Polish. And then there are the Sport horse judges. Everyone in that group complains that there is no standard for judging there either. The dressage judge may pick something very different from what the hunter/ jumper judge picks. That is why it is soooo important to know your judges, and evaluate their placings based on what you know about their tastes. Don't beat your horse up based on one opinion. A show record is only one aspect of a horses value. I find it interesting that lots of reserve national champion stallions have been better breeding horses than the horse that won the class.
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PostSubject: Re: Should Shows Eliminate Halter Classes   Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:26 am

The problem with the card is the USE of the card. When someone shows a horse at one show (Vegas) and gets 18 and above in the categories, it is tough to justify the 10s and 11s that the same horse gets with the AHA card. There is no rhyme or reason.

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