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 RUN FROM THESE

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DELGADO
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PostSubject: RUN FROM THESE   Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:51 pm

Chuck Mangan
Gary Dearth

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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:12 am

why?
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:44 am

Hey Del, what did these men do that would make you want to run from them?
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DELGADO
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:35 pm

Mr. Mangan has been known to "dump" horses and be way OFF base from his fellow judges...Such as a card that read 2-2-9 in our case, with him being the 9 in a 9 horse class.

Mr Dearth just spent an entire week at Region 4 being 20+ points lower than his counterparts on the SAME horse in the same class . He seems to do a fine job at performance classes but was very far off of his counterparts in all halter classes.

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TF SIR PRIZE
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SIRPREMACY DP
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LUMENA ELLAS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vam-Aln1YYg
ZAMA DP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKxt81EEyw0
NO REGRETS!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apM8W6W_h4Q
DRAW YOUR OWN LINES
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Last edited by COMMANDER on Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:13 pm

Thank you for sharing, Del. I know that the halter classes are quite controversial right now and I really believe we need judges that are educated in halter and do it on a fair playing field. Not all judges are on that field right now. Time will tell and maybe some big changes in how AHA deals with these types of problems with our judges.

Mary S.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:58 pm

Could it be that Gary Dearth had a different interpretation of how to use the score card than the other judges? Was he just using a broader range on the 20 scale, or was it that his opinions were entirely different?
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DELGADO
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:52 am

Irrelevent. He did not judge the same horse the same way as his counterparts. One horse, One card, One standard. Folks need to start figuring this out.

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TF SIR PRIZE
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SIRPREMACY DP
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LUMENA ELLAS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vam-Aln1YYg
ZAMA DP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKxt81EEyw0
NO REGRETS!!!
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:32 pm

Absolutely agree with you Del! This has to be addressed or they need more education before they judge another show.

Mary S.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:50 pm

I think in this day and age, unfortunately, all the educaiton in the world won't matter because politics will always play a part. If it's a trainer, he's going to judge another trainer with more leniancy because s/he expects the same from them! So unfair but I've encountered it all the many years I've shown as I haven't been with a "big name" since I was about 12!
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:31 am

Gordon Potts!
He judged Region 15, never giving any of the halter horses anything higher than a 94. He judged the entire yearling filly class of 16 (?-Not sure of the number, there were a bunch) within 4 points of eachother- and none scored over a 94. Basically he was saying that they were all average.
The other two judges in the class my horse was in gave a composite score of 101 and 98. Gordon gave a composite score of 84.
And BTW, why would they ask a person who has no clue about halter to judge a halter class?
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DELGADO
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:16 pm

nicnaq you have just asked the MILLION dollar question.

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TF SIR PRIZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QUMFIeWDnk
SIRPREMACY DP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs5O5VlOYY
LUMENA ELLAS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vam-Aln1YYg
ZAMA DP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKxt81EEyw0
NO REGRETS!!!
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DRAW YOUR OWN LINES
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:37 am

I've attended a couple of the Judges' mini schools held during conventions. They like to throw around the phrase "form-to-function". However, their interpretation of form-to-function shows just how little they all really do know. Form-to-function doesn't even recognize itself in the Judges' training.

I say this with absolute conviction because I studied with the man who pioneered and "proved" form-to-function over 50 years ago.

My book based upon this great horseman's work is currently "copyright pending" in the Copyright Office in DC.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:58 pm

Hey guys, if a judge scores consistently lower throughout a class, it shouldn't matter. It doesn't affect the class at all. If the first place horse gets a 110, 105, and 84 and the second place gets a 104, 100, and 80, respectively, IT DOESN'T MATTER. And if they didn't know what they were doing, they wouldn't have their card. I had this conversation with a large R judge that has had 40923456 years of experience, and is well respected within the industry. A low score is not necessarily a bad score. Remember that.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:52 pm

I guess as an Ammy, (and coming from showing dogs which is identical) I want to know which judges look past "the faces" and judge horses. I know that some judges look to give professionals an advantage, for the payback of more judging assignments, stud services, purchases, etc.

What I want to know is, which judges give equal opportunity to us Ammys and which are pleasant to show to.

Since I am doing this for fun, I want to go home having had a great time with my friend in a pleasant ring.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:39 am

Austin wrote:
Hey guys, if a judge scores consistently lower throughout a class, it shouldn't matter. It doesn't affect the class at all. If the first place horse gets a 110, 105, and 84 and the second place gets a 104, 100, and 80, respectively, IT DOESN'T MATTER. And if they didn't know what they were doing, they wouldn't have their card. I had this conversation with a large R judge that has had 40923456 years of experience, and is well respected within the industry. A low score is not necessarily a bad score. Remember that.

Austin it does matter...take yourself back to MOS....how would you feel about a card that read...2, 3, 16? What would you think of the judge that placed the same horse 16th? Obviously they were not able to assess the horse in the same manner as the other judges. You claim it does not matter? Quality or the lack of it DOES matter. If one judge is giving your horse 17 on legs and another is giving it an 8, who is right? Does your horse have quality legs or rotten ones? Any potential customer or breeder might like to know.

Judges are no longer asked to place a class but that is exactly what happens with the way they use the card. The CARD and the STANDARD are supposed to place the class, not the judges. We are paying them for their experience and honor, not their opinion. Telling me that a judge has that many years of experience in the AHA is not a selling point.

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TF SIR PRIZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QUMFIeWDnk
SIRPREMACY DP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs5O5VlOYY
LUMENA ELLAS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vam-Aln1YYg
ZAMA DP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKxt81EEyw0
NO REGRETS!!!
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:20 pm

COMMANDER wrote:
Austin it does matter...take yourself back to MOS....how would you feel about a card that read...2, 3, 16? What would you think of the judge that placed the same horse 16th? Obviously they were not able to assess the horse in the same manner as the other judges. You claim it does not matter? Quality or the lack of it DOES matter. If one judge is giving your horse 17 on legs and another is giving it an 8, who is right? Does your horse have quality legs or rotten ones? Any potential customer or breeder might like to know.

Judges are no longer asked to place a class but that is exactly what happens with the way they use the card. The CARD and the STANDARD are supposed to place the class, not the judges. We are paying them for their experience and honor, not their opinion. Telling me that a judge has that many years of experience in the AHA is not a selling point.

Bolded my response:

Del, this is not what I was talking about. If you were consistently 3, 3, 4 on a scorecard, regardless of what the range in scores is, whether it's 12, 13, 7, or even across the board - that's what doesn't matter.

If a judge places you 3,4,16, then there is likely a problem. Or they saw the class in a different light, for example: because they didn't think that horse would make a good performance horse (in the MOS). In the scorecard, it's different, of course. But I said CONSISTENLY lower. Like lower on every horse (a scenario at region 2).


Personally, I don't consider using a judge's scores on a horse to make my own opinions of them. If I want to know the qualities of that horse's legs, I'll find out. Through that of its get. pictures, videos, (for a stud) or by going and looking at it myself - to buy. So the only person who is "right" here is yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:48 am

Austin,

I understand what you're saying about consistency. But what about accuracy? If two judges give a horse 15's for legs and the third give it a 6, there's a 9 point spread. The third judge may be consistent but I think the accuracy is questionable. I would expect horses scoring 15 on legs to show good alignment without any major faults. Perhaps a horse with a 15 for legs could use more bone or slightly better angulation of the pasterns. A horse scoring a 6 for legs would have some major faults - calf knees, club feet, etc. If I was judging a horse with good alignment and placing of the legs and it had good bone and angulation, I'd say that's a 18 or 19.

I used to show warmbloods in hand. When I bred my Dutch mare, I paid a lot of attention to the stallion's scores for legs and movement. My point is that the scoring system is not just a means of placing a class. Rather, it should provide useful breeding information to aid breeders in improving the breed. When a stallion has a enough offspring being evaluated, the collective scores for whatever criteria should give a mare owner some idea as to the predictability that stallion for improving legs, producing a good jumper or dressage horse, etc. The collecitve scores are only as good as the accuracy.

I don't know if we'll ever get to the point of using scores to make breeding decisions and I certainly wouldn't rely on scores alone. But the scoring system should be more valuable than the old comparative system. Anyway, that's my experience with scoring systems outside of our breed.

Dave
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:29 pm

dave wrote:
Austin,

I understand what you're saying about consistency. But what about accuracy? If two judges give a horse 15's for legs and the third give it a 6, there's a 9 point spread. The third judge may be consistent but I think the accuracy is questionable. I would expect horses scoring 15 on legs to show good alignment without any major faults. Perhaps a horse with a 15 for legs could use more bone or slightly better angulation of the pasterns. A horse scoring a 6 for legs would have some major faults - calf knees, club feet, etc. If I was judging a horse with good alignment and placing of the legs and it had good bone and angulation, I'd say that's a 18 or 19.

I used to show warmbloods in hand. When I bred my Dutch mare, I paid a lot of attention to the stallion's scores for legs and movement. My point is that the scoring system is not just a means of placing a class. Rather, it should provide useful breeding information to aid breeders in improving the breed. When a stallion has a enough offspring being evaluated, the collective scores for whatever criteria should give a mare owner some idea as to the predictability that stallion for improving legs, producing a good jumper or dressage horse, etc. The collecitve scores are only as good as the accuracy.

I don't know if we'll ever get to the point of using scores to make breeding decisions and I certainly wouldn't rely on scores alone. But the scoring system should be more valuable than the old comparative system. Anyway, that's my experience with scoring systems outside of our breed.

Dave

Occasionally the odd man out is the only one scoring correctly. One example might be the Scottsdale stallion halter class.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:33 pm

Kira wrote:
dave wrote:
Austin,

I understand what you're saying about consistency. But what about accuracy? If two judges give a horse 15's for legs and the third give it a 6, there's a 9 point spread. The third judge may be consistent but I think the accuracy is questionable. I would expect horses scoring 15 on legs to show good alignment without any major faults. Perhaps a horse with a 15 for legs could use more bone or slightly better angulation of the pasterns. A horse scoring a 6 for legs would have some major faults - calf knees, club feet, etc. If I was judging a horse with good alignment and placing of the legs and it had good bone and angulation, I'd say that's a 18 or 19.

I used to show warmbloods in hand. When I bred my Dutch mare, I paid a lot of attention to the stallion's scores for legs and movement. My point is that the scoring system is not just a means of placing a class. Rather, it should provide useful breeding information to aid breeders in improving the breed. When a stallion has a enough offspring being evaluated, the collective scores for whatever criteria should give a mare owner some idea as to the predictability that stallion for improving legs, producing a good jumper or dressage horse, etc. The collecitve scores are only as good as the accuracy.

I don't know if we'll ever get to the point of using scores to make breeding decisions and I certainly wouldn't rely on scores alone. But the scoring system should be more valuable than the old comparative system. Anyway, that's my experience with scoring systems outside of our breed.

Dave

Occasionally the odd man out is the only one scoring correctly. One example might be the Scottsdale stallion halter class.

In Del's defense - I went to the show that I believe is in question here and watched his class on one day. I wasn't able to make it back on the following days, but I understand what he's saying here. I guess ya just had to be there ...
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:12 pm

I just finally pulled this topic up to read it. I had been avoiding it to some extent. I try very hard to simply not say anything at all if I disagree with a judge's placings. Having held a 4-H judge's card for many years, I understand some of the difficulties a judge faces in pinning a class. And I'm am sure those are only greatly compounded in the rated Arab ring where a lot more is at stake (though 4-H mommies aren't people you want to mess with either!).

I am interested in reading everyone's opinion of the halter scoring system however. And some interesting points are brought up here.

I guess the way I look at it...even though a number is attached...it is still a subjective opinion. One person's 8 is another person's 10. And, I have to agree with Austin, so long as the individual consistently uses the SAME number for their scoring, I don't see why it matters. Say three horses were placed. Horse A scored 110 under the first judge and 90 under the second judge. Horse B scored 108 under the first judge and 89 under the second judge. Horse C scored 100 under the first judge and 88 under the second judge. On both judges cards the placing will be the same: A, B, C. Now...if they flipped these horses that would be an issue. But the number is a subjective thing. It's the exact same way in SHIH. Now if we measured cannon bone circumference and length and the angles of the joints and used that to calculate a feet and leg score--THAT would be objective. And we'd be arguing about the geometric configuration of a 'perfect' leg instead. Smile

I see the point about accuracy. But...we would have to have a VERY specific definition of each number on the score sheet (more than there is now) to determine whether a person's scoring is accurate.

Just look at the Body Condition Scoring system as an example--another numberic, yet subjective scale. Take 10 people and give them 10 horses to look at and ask them to score out their condition (ie weight) on a 5 or 9 point scale (which ever is your favorite)...with or without half points (which ever you choose). Heck--give them the guidelines to look at while they do it (which are fairly specific). And you'll end up with a variety of answers for each horse. A single horse will have a variety of scores. Yet...if there is a severely underweight horse...and a severely overweight horse in the group...the individuals scoring them will be able to pick those horses out--even though those horse's may not all have shared the same BCS number on everyone's sheets. This is where some personal experience comes into play--in my profession I personally have seen some VERY skinny and VERY fat horses. I have a very clear picture of the limits of my scale. Someone who hasn't seen such skinny or fat horses will have a much different idea of the limits of their scale.
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DELGADO
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:30 pm

How about this scenario. Two mare classes in two different states under two seperate sets of judges.

Washington show....Winning mare 125, 5th place mare 102.
Florida show....Winning mare 102, 5th place horse 80.

Which mare is national quality? The winner in FL or the last place horse in Washington.

If the scores MEAN ANYTHING at all, should the winning owner in FL invest the money to go to nationals when they know the 5 horses in WA were better breeding stock?

Which mare is worth more in the market place...The winner in FL or the last place horse in WA? If the scores were uniform would the horses not be worth about the same?

Are the 5 place horse in WA and the 5th place horse in FL about the same quality?

I think the score needs to mean something besides a placing. Placing 5th in a DEEP class where the winner is worth a 120 and you recieve a 102 is VASTLY better than winning a class with an 80, which has been seen under this card.

A breeding class is about identifying the most appropriate breeding animals. Being the 5th most appropriate animal in a DEEP class CAN, and SHOULD mean something.

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TF SIR PRIZE
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SIRPREMACY DP
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LUMENA ELLAS
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ZAMA DP
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:27 pm

I tend to think like Dave does, that scores do need to have a value and a meaning as they do in an evaluation of WB breeding stock. However, our Arabian judges are not used to evaluating horses based on scores, at least not in North America. Some are heavily resisting the system, which is and has resulted in gaming the card.

One thing which really needs to be determined is whether the scores are based on only horses at a specific show, only Arabian show horses or the entire population of Arabian horses nationwide.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:19 pm

Just wanted to add this one:

Debbie Cain

Reason- She judged one of our shows and although my horse was 2nd based on the points on the card, she went back and placed him last. Changing the card after all the horses had been presented and right before the announcer announced the class. Only three horses in the class. How do I know this happened? Two of our members were working in the center ring tallying points and distributing ribbons. When she heard the placings being told over the walkie talkie she said that's not right and changed her card. Kinda defeats the purpose of the score cards if you ask me.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:35 am

David Garrett. At Region 9 he was SO far off from his co judges! Like a 30 point difference. When asked about it, he said he was getting the exhibitors ready for the harsh realities of Nationals and they won't make it. Way to encourage the small breeder/exhibitor! So many exhibitors had the same problem. He was dumping horses that he shouldn't because even in performance he doesn't like the look of them. Just my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:51 am

You all would have real head scratches at SHIH cards! LOL! They can vary VASTLY from show ot show or even from the open to amateur classes! Did a double show recently where my horse scored a 3 on his hindquarters yet a 9 for his trot. His total score was 71 and he palced third. Next day, different judge, he got all 8's and 9's and some 10's and won against the same horses with a 92! (scores are on a 0-10)
another time this horse was res NC in hand went to another show and was placed quite low in a class of less than national quality horses.
One person's opinion on the day but sure makes fun reading!
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:00 pm

"David Garrett. .....When asked about it, he said he was getting the exhibitors ready for the harsh realities of Nationals and they won't make it...."

It is not a judge's place to do this to any exhibitors. His/her job is judge the class in front of him/her that minute /day to the breed standards and rules. Judging Open shows or non purebred classes might be hard but the judge needs to also be qualified to judge the other horses in the class or a quailified judge needs to replace him/her.

"Debbie Cain ..... my horse was 2nd based on the points on the card, she went back and placed him last. Changing the card after all the horses had been presented and right before the announcer announced the class. Only three horses ..........."

And once he/she hands his/her scorecard over, he/she should not allowed to make any changes.

AHA needs to be made aware of this conduct. And address. My opinion.
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PostSubject: Won't show under   Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:04 pm

Gordon Potts

Told us our Half-arab didn't look like a "western" horse and didn't give him a second look, even though our half-arab had several regional championships to his name and has beautiful confirmation, manners, and movement. Not sure who defined that a half-arab was supposed to look like a quarter horse which is what he was placing, short stocky horses. I thought judging was based on confirmation, gates, and manners...
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:53 pm

I dont' know about judging, but Gordon Potts is an exceptionally talented trainer,
Lori
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:33 am

KAHanson wrote:
David Garrett. At Region 9 he was SO far off from his co judges! Like a 30 point difference. When asked about it, he said he was getting the exhibitors ready for the harsh realities of Nationals and they won't make it. Way to encourage the small breeder/exhibitor! So many exhibitors had the same problem. He was dumping horses that he shouldn't because even in performance he doesn't like the look of them. Just my opinion.

I'd be willing to say I get his point of view pretty well. He scored horses just as he thought they belonged, not with an artificially inflated score because it was a regional to make the exhibitor feel better. Additionally, judges are hired and paid for their opinions of horses. If they don't like them, THEY DON'T PLACE THEM! That's their prerogative. Also - look at how many judges are on both lists - good and bad. Clearly, everyone's personal experience is different.

By the way - MANY judges on this list are "R" rated and have already judged national shows. That means that they have proven themselves as a judge and entire selection committees have found them fit to judge our highest competition.

Oh and try and do a little research before you bash on the father of a frequent poster. Smh.
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PostSubject: Re: RUN FROM THESE   Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:01 pm

Nothing against anyone's father, but judges are NOT hired for their opinions of horses. With the score card they are hired for their EXPERTISE on horse flesh. The problem seems to be that judges still give a sh*& who wins. Nationals is a prefect example. One horse beats another horse in Open Halter, but falls FAR behind the very same horse the next day in AOTH halter. What good was the opinion?Wink If we ever see a day where the judges DO NOT have an opinion of the placings and actually adjudicate the horses against the standard with NO REGARD for anything else, our breed might actually start seeing the most appropriate breeding animals rising to the top.

I will take exception to one thing you said Austin. The "R" is not always a result of a judge proving themselves.


This post is NOT about any specific judge. A general comment.

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