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 a retained....what??

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Shahnara
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PostSubject: a retained....what??   Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:22 pm

Vet was here this morning again for Jasmine, u/s her & said she's not in foal, she has a retained corpus luteum & that's why she hasn't come into heat again. Says she ovulated but there wasn't enough of a hormone surge to get her officially pregnant & her ovaries are being tricked into thinking she is.
This is a mare who is VERY regular with heat cycles & is a 21/22 day mare, she came into heat on the 1st, was bred on the 4th & then no heat since. Have you guys ever heard of something like this? I saw the ultrasound picture & there is a black, for lack of a better word, mass with a small white patch above it but the vet says he can't see anything & can't see a heatbeat so she's not in foal. I have no idea what to think now
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Amigo
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:53 pm

Okay, I've been away from the site for a few days. Has she returned to heat yet, on her own? How many days pregnant was she supposed to be at the time of the u/s? Here's what just happened on a mare that I bred for a client - she wasn't cycling AT ALL on her own, so I called in my vet. She did a complete repro workup including u/s, and found both ovaries were covered with small follicles, no dominant ones to be seen. She gave her a shot of prosten. Three days later, the mare was in heat. We went ahead and started breeding her as soon as she was willing to stand, got a total of two services on her. She was only in heat for five days. On the sixth day when I teased her, she was ready to decapitate Breaker! I notified the owner that she was definately out, and ready to go home. He hauled her to his vet on the 14th day following her final breeding. The vet found her pregnant, but said that from the size of the vescicle, she had actually ovulated several days after going out of heat. She figured her to actually be about 11 days pregnant. He sent me a pic of the u/s, and there was a black 'sac' with nothing visible in it, at least to me. I am not trained in reading u/s. But if you are seeing what I was seeing, your mare may be in foal, just not as much so as you are thinking. If she doesn't come back in, if it were me, I might wait a couple weeks and u/s again. Then if nothing, procede with lh.
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Shahnara
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:30 am

she hasn't come back into heat at all, on her own or otherwise. She would be at 29 days in foal today if she took at that breeding, she lets the stallion talk to her & he drops but she doesn't act like it means a thing, no winking, no tail up, squatting, none of it & he gets bored & doesn't want to talk to her anymore. For almost 2 weeks she would pin her ears, squeal & strike at the stall door but now she's just not interested.
We have a TB mare on the farm that was bred & should be at almost 3 weeks but because she held on to the follicle she's only at 11 days so I'm wondering if she just ovulated later then we thought. This vet keeps saying she has retained the corpus luteum & leave her be, it'll pop & she'll come back in but so far nada. Not even an inkling of it
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drlaura
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:47 am

I would have her re-ultrasounded now. If she IS pregnant, it will be much bigger than the last time he checked.

I'm a little confused by him saying he cant see a heatbeat so she's not in foal. Does he see something else in the uterus that's suspicious of a pregnancy? It could just be a cyst, but it could also be a pregnancy that's earlier than you thought. Was she ultrasounded when she came in to heat? If she had a cyst they shoudl have seen it then.

IT sounds like what you are describing was a picture of the ovary with a small follicle (the black thing) and a CL (the white thing). IF she truely is holding on to a CL she should be given Lutalyse/Estrume/Prostin (whatever you want to call it) to get rid of the CL and be brought back into heat. But I would want her rechecked first to make sure you aren't killing a pregnancy!

Amigo, I would be really concerned about any vet that claims they have an 11 day pregnancy. They are incredibly small at that time (so small I would not be willing to call it a pregnancy). Are they having the mare rechecked?

I'll see if I can attach some pics of different pregnancies.
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drlaura
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:05 am


A 16 day pregnancy. THe pregnancy is the big balck thing. THis isn't a great pic, but see how there is a grey "donut" around it? That is the uterus. That's how you know this is a pregnancy not a follicle. If you were the one doign the ultrasound you would know it's not a follicle because you would know you are touching the uterus not the ovary, but this is how you can tell by looking at the picture (I have had people show me a pic of a "pregnancy" and it was an ovary!!)



An 18 day pregnancy. At about 18-20 days it starts to loose it's "roundness"


A 35 day pregnancy. The blob in the middle is the embryo. If this was in motion you would see the heat beating in the middle of the blob.


A 60-70 day pregnancy. I love this pic. The fetus is laying on it's back with its head to the left of the screen, you can make out both front legs, the umbilical cord, and a back leg, and a hint of it's tail bone (it was better in real time). I've never gotten a pic with this much of the fetus in it at one time. It is a mini so maybe that's why it all fit on the screen :^)
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drlaura
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:12 am

Okay, Here is a 14 day pregnancy. See how much smaller it is than even a 16 day? So you can imagine how tiny an 11 day is. I would even be nervous calling THIS a pregnancy vs. a cyst, except that I had ultrasounded this mare a hundred times and I knew she didnt have any cysts.
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drlaura
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:24 am



Now here is a follicle picutre I hijacked from a website. First you can see several different black things. so that tells you it's probably not a pregnancy (or you're having triplets!). Plus you dont have that distinct grey "donut" encompassing the whole thing, so it's not in the uterus. Each follicle has a thin grey rim, but if these were pregnancies (or a pregnancy and a few cysts) they would all be inside the donut (wall of the uterus) together.
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drlaura
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:25 am

Okay, sorry, got a little carried away. I love repro stuff......
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Shahnara
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:35 am

Dr. Laura, thanks for the pictures Smile We know she has one cyst & we know exactly where it is so what was on the U/S wasn't that but was something else. The best way I can describe it is, there was a circular black thing & a greyish looking thing above it but with a space in between, does that make sense?
The vet made no mention of giving her any kind of shot to get rid of the CL, he just said basically that it'll pop & she'll come back into heat. He is the only real repro vet in our area so I don't know who else I can call to come take a look at her Sad
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drlaura
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:50 am

I'm betting what you saw was a small follicle and the CL on her ovary (I've been trying to find a picture of one). CL's are brighter grey/white blobby-circles (to use the scientific terms Very Happy ).

Even if someone else cant come out I would maybe ask him to check her again. If he still doesnt see a pregnancy, then he can give her the shot to help her come back in.

Other possibilities for what might have happened:
It looks like she was 26 days out from breeding when she was rechecked. Which means she should have gone thru a cycle already at that point. Rather than having "retained" her CL, this might be a whole new one. Now the question is why she didnt show heat. How often was she being teased? Was it with a stallion or some other way? How was she bred initially (live cover or AI)?

She might have gotten pregnant then lost it early. If it's late enough for her body to say "Hey I think I'm pregnant", that can delay them coming back into heat. Smetimes early losses can just be a fluke thing, but sometimes thay canbe asign of a low grade infection, inflammation post breeding, etc. Is this the first cycle she has been bred on or have you been havign trouble this season? If this is the first cycle I would just try again, but if you've been havig trouble with her I would definitely get a culture and cytology. And check to see if she needs a caslicks. And have her ultrasounded AFTER she's bred to be sure she's clearig fluid like she should (or just plan to give her several doses of oxytocin starting 4 hours after breeding, then going every 2 hours for 3-4 doses).

Good luck!
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Shahnara
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:45 pm

She was bred once & didn't take so we bred her again she was checked at 15 days after breeding the first time & he didn't see anything but came back when she didn't come back into heat. She never went back into heat after being bred via AI, she did after the first try but not the 2nd. He checked her on the 2nd, the 3rd & we bred her on the 4th, she was cultured prior to breeding & came back clear, we teased her with our stallion.
We're into July now so I'm not breeding again this year & this was my last shot with this mare, she will be 14 next year & is just too special to me to keep doing this to her. Just not meant to have a foal from the horse of my heart I guess Sad
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Amigo
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:16 pm

drlaura wrote:
I would have her re-ultrasounded now. If she IS pregnant, it will be much bigger than the last time he checked.

I'm a little confused by him saying he cant see a heatbeat so she's not in foal. Does he see something else in the uterus that's suspicious of a pregnancy? It could just be a cyst, but it could also be a pregnancy that's earlier than you thought. Was she ultrasounded when she came in to heat? If she had a cyst they shoudl have seen it then.

IT sounds like what you are describing was a picture of the ovary with a small follicle (the black thing) and a CL (the white thing). IF she truely is holding on to a CL she should be given Lutalyse/Estrume/Prostin (whatever you want to call it) to get rid of the CL and be brought back into heat. But I would want her rechecked first to make sure you aren't killing a pregnancy!

Amigo, I would be really concerned about any vet that claims they have an 11 day pregnancy. They are incredibly small at that time (so small I would not be willing to call it a pregnancy). Are they having the mare rechecked?

I'll see if I can attach some pics of different pregnancies.

Yes, has been rechecked and is good.
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Amigo
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:26 pm

Shahnara wrote:
Dr. Laura, thanks for the pictures Smile We know she has one cyst & we know exactly where it is so what was on the U/S wasn't that but was something else. The best way I can describe it is, there was a circular black thing & a greyish looking thing above it but with a space in between, does that make sense?
The vet made no mention of giving her any kind of shot to get rid of the CL, he just said basically that it'll pop & she'll come back into heat. He is the only real repro vet in our area so I don't know who else I can call to come take a look at her Sad

I've never heard a vet say that a persistant CL will just 'pop' on it's own. A follicle will 'pop', but the CL is the hormone producing structure that develops where the last follicle was. If she does in fact have a persistant CL and not a pregnancy, she will need a shot of prosten to break it down and get her going again.
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Amigo
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:36 pm

Shahnara wrote:
She was bred once & didn't take so we bred her again she was checked at 15 days after breeding the first time & he didn't see anything but came back when she didn't come back into heat. She never went back into heat after being bred via AI, she did after the first try but not the 2nd. He checked her on the 2nd, the 3rd & we bred her on the 4th, she was cultured prior to breeding & came back clear, we teased her with our stallion.
We're into July now so I'm not breeding again this year & this was my last shot with this mare, she will be 14 next year & is just too special to me to keep doing this to her. Just not meant to have a foal from the horse of my heart I guess Sad

When he took the culture, did he grow it for at least 72 hours? Many years back, a mare was brought in to one of my stallions, and since my policy with mares who had foaled in the past was to culture prior to breeding, we did so. Culture came back clear at 24 hours, so the vet I was using at the time declared her clean and we bred her. She came back in heat. We cultured again - still clear. She came back in heat. Next time, the vet grew it for 72 hours - she was nasty! We treated her for the infection, a slow growing 'bug', bred her, and she produced a lovely filly the following year.
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Shahnara
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PostSubject: Re: a retained....what??   Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:57 am

All I know is he sent it to a very good lab to be tested. Mare is at 36 days now, still no heat, teased her yesterday with a TB stallion who has been covering at least 2 mares a week since spring & he was happy. Talked to her, really teased & all she wanted to do was come back to the barn, I'm really getting frustrated by it all, a friend who does repro sent me pics of a follicle & a CL & that is not what I saw on Jasmine's u/s. Either way, if she's not bred then that's it, 14 is just too much of a risk to me to try again after all this
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